Muri

Mi ritrovo spesso invischiato in discussioni dagli esiti scontati, eppure non riesco a rinunciare a sostenere le mie ragioni, cercando di non perdere la pazienza, anche quando verrebbe l'impulso di mandare l'interlocutore a quel paese.

In questi giorni il tema caldo è l'attacco su Gaza. Non ho resistito alla tentazione di contraddire un vecchio amico israeliano, che sosteneva il diritto all'autodifesa di Israele, perché così si chiamano i bombardamenti, semplice autodifesa. E a quel punto è partita una serie di batti e ribatti, ma mi sembrava di giocare a squash da solo contro un muro. Sono così tanti gli israeliani a vivere in questa bolla, una condizione di precarietà permanente che tutto giustifica e che annulla i basilari sentimenti umani. Qualcuno che apre gli occhi c'è, ma sono troppo pochi. 

Buona lettura, se avete la pazienza di entrare nella scoraggiante psicologia del conflitto, un dialogo che si conclude in battuta, quando non rimane altro da fare. Io continuo a non arrendermi e a discutere e spiegare e ragionare.

"All we are saying is give peace a chance".

• Samuele Tofano Please AAAA tell me you are not in favor of what Israel is doing right now in Gaza - this is way beyond self defense, and the death of so many civilians is unacceptable... nothing new, things as usual, and it's so counterproductive! (by the way supplies to Gaza are severely restricted, often with no reasonable reasons, even in relation to food or water or medical supplies...). Please, stay human!! (and no, I don't accept as an answer "but firing rockets with the actual intention to hit civilians is acceptable? Is it human?" Because my reply would be "of course not" - but this course of action is the opposite to what would serve to really isolate the jihadists)

  
  
• AAAA Samuele Tofano, what are you suggesting to do?
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• BBBB Samuele, do you realize how many half-truths, misconceptions and outright lies there are in your one paragraph? There is literally nt one true statement in there. You might not realize it, but what for you is philosophical conversation, for us is our lives.
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  Samuele Tofano BBBB, don't try and make my words look like empty rethoric - I see the results of the practical policy of the last Israeli governments in what happens in these days - a complete failure. If there is no intention whatsoever in reaching some agreement for a two-state solution then that's fine, it's just a matter of limiting damage, but otherwise Netanyahu is simply unwilling and incapable of anything positive. AAAA, in this precise moment it's really difficult to suggest a way out, because Israel has willingly entered a spiral of violence (even if I agree that Hamas has started it by provoking it) - but I still believe that a complete stop of all military actions and some act of good will would lead to a quick stop of all sirens resounding in Israel - and I really wouldn't care much if Hamas start saying "we won!". Imagine this - Israel announces a stop of all its operations in 12 hours, let's say - with a warning that no rocket should be fired in three days time, otherwise operations will restart. At that point a proper truce agreement should be reached. And look, I'm being very very practical and realistic, non "philosophy" here. The basic problem, in my opinion, is that you have voted this rightwing government, so until there won't be a government with an actual and real agenda for peace, I cannot see any positive outcome. And BBBB, again, you talk about your lives, which thankfully are mostly safe, due to a difensive system, due to the inefficacy of Hamas rockets (and I'm not saying it's entertainment, I can truly imagine the fear you're going through, and some victims might still come), but you cannot possibly accept that civilans in Gaza, including women and children, bear a responsibiliy for their leadership, to the point that they deserve death. What real power has each singular civilian - and I can even mention movements in Gaza who say "fuck Hamas", so you cannot possibly accept that when Gaza is bombed it's as if a uniform corpse of terrorists is hit...

  
  
• BBBB 'Im not trying to do anything. 
  
  For example, you claim that supplies to Gaza are restricted, and mention food and water. Yet not only is that completely false, the reality is that during these types of operations, this one included, medication, food and water are constantly supplied to Gaza by Israeli drivers, sometimes under fire.
  
  And in your second post, another misconception. Israel actually tried the exact approach many times, including several attempts these last few weeks. I dont think you realize exactly who is on the other side, yet youre happy to take risks on Israel's behalf. 
  
  And seriously, yes, we hold civilians responsible for their democratically elected government. Isnt that usually how it works?

  
  
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  Samuele Tofano I'm afraid BBBB that you are not well informed, but I don't blame you, as it's really difficult to get the proper information when mainstream media are so biased. So you don't know how during normal times, food and medical supplies are suddenly restricted for "security" reasons, by removing some products, in a completely arbitrary way - and that's the psicology of occupation, harassment and abuse, even when no direct physical violence is involved. I think you are not really aware to what palestinian civilians do suffer in their daily life. Israel tried the exact approach? Really? I know that Israel has interrupted several times ongoing truce, because they had to do some "sikul". I know that Israel kept on arresting hundreds of Palestinians frome their homes, holding them without any proper trial, basically kidnapping them with generic accusations. As for their responsibility, you've said it, they are responsible - so they deserve to die, maybe not all of them, but the ones that happen to be in the way, who cares... it's war baby... So let me say that, with the same reasoning I would hold all Israelis responsible for having democratically elected a government in which people like Liberman, or Benett, who support violent repression of Palestians, who are against any two-state solution - so you are responsible, thus you deserve to die? Can't you see that you use the same approach as Hamas does?!? Children in Gaza are responsible for their government?! I really cannot believe that you would think that, otherwise rockets and alarms are just a natural consequence...

  
  
• BBBB Lucky for me then that I have you to clarify things for me. I dont know what your understanding of history is, and what your experiences are, but I wish you would try to educate yourself before forming an opinion that affects other peoples lives.
  
  You have to understand that Israel is a very small country. When you talk about atrocities and other propaganda, you are talking about my brothers, friends, classmates and about me. I dont need the media to be informed.
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  Samuele Tofano My opinion is that you live in a bubble and you see what you want to see, what you're used to see - I know I cannot convince you, why would you say I'm right - "what does he know?" (just so that you know, although I don't live in Israel, I'm an Israeli citizen and many members of my family live there). My opinion does no affect your life, I wish it could... just please try and always doubt your truths and please try and see the fact that there are many humang beings also on the other side that really don't deserve to die, for all the guilts you see in them - they have grown learning to hate Israel and curse you - helped by a propaganda that has turned more and more islam-based, same as so many in Israel have grown learning to hate Palestinians, sometimes in a more subtle way, but still. The objective should be to turn around this hate, without always requiring a first move from the other side. Ok, ok, enough with my "philosophy", what do I know? I'm saddened by these discussions that lead nowhere... I wish you a quick stop in rocket firing. All I am saying, is give peace a chance...
• BBBB My opinion is that you live in Italy and for some reason think you know about my country than I do. By the way I think the Italians are discriminatory against tall people. Ive never been there but I did see Juventus play on TV.